Curse

Morphy · Jun 13, 2010, 09:26 AM // 09:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Real Avalon

Honestly.

Why do people synch?

The need for consecutive wins, that is all, to get their title in the fastest possible way.

With which builds do they synch? A stable and solid build that nets them 25 wins nearly every synch.

Is it the fastest build to do so? Not by a long shot.

Simple Fix: Change the need for consecutive wins for the Gladiator Title.

Multiply it by 3 so people won't complain about losing a lot of time and effort due to the non-retroactive nature of the title and raise the cap to 80.000 Points or so.

And simply grant a point per win.

That way people wouldn't rage if they didn't have a monk and just try to facestomp the opposing team. Synch teams wouldn't exist anymore if you kept the 25 win cap because it simply wouldn't be the fastest way to attain the title anymore.

This way RA would see a lot more play as well. I don't get to RA as much as I'd like to since I don't feel like leaving halfway my third match because I have classes or work.

RR days incoming?

Swahnee · Jun 13, 2010, 09:46 AM // 09:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

Fallacious logic. in HA randomway gets mediocre amount of fame, but didn't have to manage more than one win to get anywhere, bring back ta, and the title elitism will be worse than HA since you'd still have to get consecs to get glads, which would take the incentive out of pugging with unranked players. Of course people would learn to farm glads in TA, but the beauty of ra is, you don't have to form a group just to stand around waiting to farm ra spillovers, and not relying on feeble pug groups to slowly farm(or get farmed) for glad points is just impractical.

Maybe i haven't been clear enough before. If things in RA/TA were changed so much, it's obvious that we would have to rethink also the title system. Why do you think that if TA was the only place with glad, it would work in the same way as now? As i said before, it's not set in stone that you have to keep the rules of today, such as to make consecutive wins to earn points. Maybe it would be better to change the title in TA so that 1 win = 1 point like it's in HA, i don't know. Also the 10 wins limit with the forced shipping to TA could be a good thing. But these are the problems that comes after.

It seems that we are forgetting the main reason why other people and i want the glad title to be removed from RA. The presence of the title is not only the cause of syncers and botters (so don't stand on this argument, saying that after all it's not so bad), but also of the awful attitude of people who make RA a game impossible to have fun with, if you aren't a title grinder, but a casual player. And in no way you would solve the problem without getting rid of the title, because it's the actual presence of the title that makes the grinding attitude appear: where there is a title, there they are the grinders.

I'm hearing people saying here that the removal of the glad title from RA would cause everybody to leave it, but please be precise and say that it would cause every title grinder and syncer to leave it. Does this mean that it would be a dead place? Maybe, but i think that, with the right advertisement, it would attract the PvErs (not title grinders), the casual players, the PvP lovers with little time on their hands, etc.

It's really sad that people here are saying that the only reason why somebody would have to play a computer game is to make a useless virtual title grow.

I feel that the main thing that is hurting PvP is the lack of new blood, and, in my opinion, this comes directly from the fact that it doesn't exist any place where to learn PvP without tons of stress, that even the low level arenas, that would have to be places newcomers-friendly, are full of grinders with awful attitudes, who don't want to waste their precious times with newbies and casuals. I see it everyday in my guild, where there are people who would like to try PvP, but are too scared to do something different than AB and JQ.

And what does the argument "learn to PvP" mean? If it's meaning is "you have to dedicate countless hours of practicing without having fun to become able to play into a casual, random arena without being insulted", then you have the reason why PvP is dying and its playerbase is getting every day smaller.

Sorry for the long post.

ZenRgy · Jun 13, 2010, 10:05 AM // 10:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

If you, ArenaNet aren't or won't do anything about the sync problem, I kindly ask you to please remove the Gladiator title track and Random Arena.

Thank you.

Nominated for funniest post of 2010.

pumpkin pie · Jun 13, 2010, 10:35 AM // 10:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

snipped
OP, you're being a little histrionic here. You "need" a response? The sandbox should be detonated because you don't like the way the other kids play in it?
snipped

No I am not histrionic, in fact, you might be histrionic for using word like histrionic. Lacking attention? Need people to think you know a big word like histrionic?

FYI: Synchers, they are not playing the game, they are exploiting the game and in doing so, making the game not fun for other players.

/runs away.

You don't even know what this thread is about, its exposing people who post false email claims that ArenaNet says hitting the "Enter Button" at the same time is not a violation.

Too bad ArenaNet is too cowardly to come out and say it.

And players are too sneaky, pretending to ask if its okay to sync. While their actual intention isn't getting an answer, they don't want the answer, they know ArenaNet isn't going to answer, which create a loophole for exploitation to exploit the exploitable. So this has to be exposed. I am just making it a bigger issue then it really is hoping ArenaNet would jump in anytime to say where they stand.

QWAK QWAK QWAK QWAK. Make a stand on the issue, ArenaNet, Ya or Nay?!!

Enon · Jun 13, 2010, 10:36 AM // 10:36

This is old.

Back in 2009 I've had several discussions with the support team about synchronizing. I explicitly explained to them how synchronizing results in unfair advantage, and thus can be seen as match manipulation, and how the developers intended RA to be random. I even suggested a fix (which was provided by another GWG member). They pretty much kept replying with the same answers as provided in the first post - that it's not a violation to hit the "Enter Battle" button at the same time as someone else.

superraptors · Jun 13, 2010, 10:58 AM // 10:58

removing syncing is fine, removing ta was fail

Cantos · Jun 13, 2010, 11:33 AM // 11:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

You don't even know what this thread is about, its exposing people who post false email claims that ArenaNet says hitting the "Enter Button" at the same time is not a violation.

Too bad ArenaNet is too cowardly to come out and say it.

I submitted a report to NCSoft support about an synch team in January 2010. I received this response:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Response (Erick) - 01/11/2010 12:51 AM

Hello,

Thank you for reporting a potential rules violation.

We will use the information you have provided to investigate whether a violation of the rules has occurred. Please let us know if you have any additional problems or questions.

Regards,
GM Erick
The Guild Wars Support Team

then this response

Quote:

Originally Posted by Response (GM ApplePython) - 01/15/2010 05:04 PM

Hello,

Currently, it is not a violation to join a battle at the exact same time as your friends. This can be accomplished by something as simple as counting down in chat before entering the map. We certainly understand that it can be frustrating to go up against coordinated teams, but it is not a violation to hit the "Enter Battle" button at the same time as someone else.

The design team is aware of this concern within the community and has noted that some players would like game mechanics to reduce or prevent syncing. The design team will be reviewing possible changes in the future, although we do not have a timeframe for any possible changes.

Please let us know if you need help with anything else.

Regards,
GM ApplePython
The Guild Wars Support Team

Here are the mail headers.

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Subject: Random Arena synch team [Incident: 100109-000112]
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I don't know what you were hoping for with regards to proof, but it's pretty clear to me that Arena.net is happy for you to synch up with your friends to stomp newbs.

pumpkin pie · Jun 13, 2010, 01:51 PM // 13:51

Thank you Cantos for the email. That's back in January?

Quote:

I don't know what you were hoping for with regards to proof, but it's pretty clear to me that Arena.net is happy for you to synch up with your friends to stomp newbs.

Hitting the enter button the same time as your friend certainly isn't a violation. BUT What they try to achieve by hitting the enter button at the same time and how they achieved it is.

Don't you see the problem with ArenaNet's email reply?? What the hell is that? Yes, we know its a problem with some players, but its also not a problem because hitting the enter button at the same time as your friend is not a violation? You, ArenaNet know very well why they hit the enter button same time as their friend. Either it is or its not a violation, there's no yeah, we know, but you wait okay, FOR 10 YEARS, maybe then we fix the problem, if we feel like it.

Killed u man · Jun 13, 2010, 03:15 PM // 15:15

It's typical NCSoft bs again. They themselves don't even know what is allowed and whatnot. Abusing that old Mallyx exploit was also nothing more than a few clicks (The map travelling glitch), yet hundreds of people got banned.

But I do give 'em that Syncing RA isn't something worthy of a perm ban, or even a temp ban. Maybe for the worst violators, strip the Gladiator title, but other than that it simply isn't worth it.

Anet has said let us know before they do not approve of syncing, but at the same time don't feel it's the biggest issue we're facing with. (And they are correct) But that is no excuse not to fix it, which would be so easy to do...

Bobby2 · Jun 13, 2010, 03:54 PM // 15:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

But I do give 'em that Syncing RA isn't something worthy of a perm ban, or even a temp ban. Maybe for the worst violators, strip the Gladiator title, but other than that it simply isn't worth it.

Because stripping the title would be a lesser punishment than a temp ban

Durrrrrrr

Gill Halendt · Jun 13, 2010, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

match manipulation.

How?

They actually have no power to manipulate the match: team formation still IS random, synchers just increase their odds to be assigned to the same team, and not even by a significant margin. Had they the absolute certainty of synching, than it would be match manipulation through and through.

Anyway, let's assume this is actually "match manipulation". It's a bannable offense, you know. How can you discern synchers from players who genuinely find themselves in the same team for a random coincidence? Happened to me once or twice. How can you recognize "synchers" anyway? While two people volountarily and maliciously synch and, say, set a countdown on Ventrilo, chances are hundreds of players are clicking the very same button at the very same time. What do you do then, ban them all? Then in a matter of hours every player in RA would be out. What's the criteria to spot synchers? Two people from the same guild ending up in the same team? What if that's genuinely random coincidence? How can you spot "friends" from different guilds who really try to synch?

The actual problem is a well rooted one: RA is ill-conceived. Either the reward promoting synching is removed, or RA is redesigned not to be "random" anymore -> how TA used to be. For how fun it might be, the problem of synchers lies in the basic design of the format.

Ka Tet · Jun 13, 2010, 06:47 PM // 18:47

I'll give pumpkin one thing, his qq is better grounded than the "zomg ban drunkard botters b/c they makes my title less 1337" qq. Syncing does to some degree affect the ability of others to play game. However, the only way to prevent syncing would increase wait times, which would hurt more than help the game.
Also, the ban mentality of GWG'ers has gone overboard. Did you really buy a video game to try to play behavior police or did you buy it to play it?

Still Number One · Jun 13, 2010, 07:23 PM // 19:23

You guys do realize removing the glad title wouldn't stop people from synching right? People like playing with their friends. The reward doesn't matter if you are having fun playing. And bringing back TA won't make those guys want to go to TA because they would have to play against the same lame overpowered builds time and time again, which is not fun.

You will never eliminate synching. It will always be there. People need to just stop complaining and realize it won't go away.

Oh and FYI, I don't synch. In fact I haven't even played RA in at least 2 months.

snaek · Jun 13, 2010, 07:27 PM // 19:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by gill halendt

They actually have no power to manipulate the match: team formation still IS random, synchers just increase their odds to be assigned to the same team, and not even by a significant margin. Had they the absolute certainty of synching, than it would be match manipulation through and through.

let me get this straight, unless something works 100% of the time, its not match manipulation? i don't think so; if syncer's only have a 10% success chance, that means 10% of their matches are manipulated. which is actually less than the true value because you do realize that a lot of syncers /resign (and refuse to play the match) if they don't get in with their buddy, right? likely causing an automatic loss for his unfortunate teamates; a form of match manipulation in favour of the opposing team.

Quote:

How can you discern synchers from players who genuinely find themselves in the same team for a random coincidence? Happened to me once or twice. How can you recognize "synchers" anyway?

exactly. you can't. well, unless they're all wearing the same guild tag, or you are 'in the know' (a lot people in the scene openly admit to syncing). i'm assuming then, that since you can't get caught for it, then its perfectly okay to do it? okay then. long live cheaters.

Swahnee · Jun 13, 2010, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

You guys do realize removing the glad title wouldn't stop people from synching right? People like playing with their friends. The reward doesn't matter if you are having fun playing. And bringing back TA won't make those guys want to go to TA because they would have to play against the same lame overpowered builds time and time again, which is not fun.

You will never eliminate synching. It will always be there. People need to just stop complaining and realize it won't go away.

Oh and FYI, I don't synch. In fact I haven't even played RA in at least 2 months.

So, has syncing been here since day 1?

This is an actual question, no sarcasm, i don't play since day 1, so i don't know.

Del · Jun 13, 2010, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swahnee

Maybe i haven't been clear enough before. If things in RA/TA were changed so much, it's obvious that we would have to rethink also the title system. Why do you think that if TA was the only place with glad, it would work in the same way as now? As i said before, it's not set in stone that you have to keep the rules of today, such as to make consecutive wins to earn points. Maybe it would be better to change the title in TA so that 1 win = 1 point like it's in HA, i don't know. Also the 10 wins limit with the forced shipping to TA could be a good thing. But these are the problems that comes after.

It seems that we are forgetting the main reason why other people and i want the glad title to be removed from RA. The presence of the title is not only the cause of syncers and botters (so don't stand on this argument, saying that after all it's not so bad), but also of the awful attitude of people who make RA a game impossible to have fun with, if you aren't a title grinder, but a casual player. And in no way you would solve the problem without getting rid of the title, because it's the actual presence of the title that makes the grinding attitude appear: where there is a title, there they are the grinders.

I'm hearing people saying here that the removal of the glad title from RA would cause everybody to leave it, but please be precise and say that it would cause every title grinder and syncer to leave it. Does this mean that it would be a dead place? Maybe, but i think that, with the right advertisement, it would attract the PvErs (not title grinders), the casual players, the PvP lovers with little time on their hands, etc.

It's really sad that people here are saying that the only reason why somebody would have to play a computer game is to make a useless virtual title grow.

I feel that the main thing that is hurting PvP is the lack of new blood, and, in my opinion, this comes directly from the fact that it doesn't exist any place where to learn PvP without tons of stress, that even the low level arenas, that would have to be places newcomers-friendly, are full of grinders with awful attitudes, who don't want to waste their precious times with newbies and casuals. I see it everyday in my guild, where there are people who would like to try PvP, but are too scared to do something different than AB and JQ.

And what does the argument "learn to PvP" mean? If it's meaning is "you have to dedicate countless hours of practicing without having fun to become able to play into a casual, random arena without being insulted", then you have the reason why PvP is dying and its playerbase is getting every day smaller.

Sorry for the long post.

a decent option as well is to simply leave the glad title as is in ra, but make ta 1 point per win, which would get title farmers to go to TA where farming is more efficient, gogo shovespike.

Sirius Bsns · Jun 13, 2010, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

a decent option as well is to simply leave the glad title as is in ra, but make ta 1 point per win, which would get title farmers to go to TA where farming is more efficient, gogo shovespike.

The problem(s) with bringing back TA is:

Gimmicks [like the one you've already mentioned... "Shovespike"] will come back,
There more than likely won't be enough players to support playing TA even if it were brought back. So, Anet would probably have to revert back to the same old "10-RA-wins-GLUCK-IN-TA-LOL!!!" routine, which was terrible to begin with. TAers would see even more NoPs now than before TA's removal because removing TA made alot of players perma-leave.

I think the only way to bring back any organized play would be to force organization in RA at the expense of RA's 100% random nature. Sure RA would no longer be 100% completely random, but along the same lines it'd no longer be completely imbalanced.

Del · Jun 13, 2010, 08:38 PM // 20:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius Bsns

The problem(s) with bringing back TA is:

Gimmicks [like the one you've already mentioned... "Shovespike"] will come back,
There more than likely won't be enough players to support playing TA even if it were brought back. So, Anet would probably have to revert back to the same old "10-RA-wins-GLUCK-IN-TA-LOL!!!" routine, which was terrible to begin with. TAers would see even more NoPs now than before TA's removal because removing TA made alot of players perma-leave.

I think the only way to bring back any organized play would be to force organization in RA at the expense of RA's 100% random nature. Sure RA would no longer be 100% completely random, but along the same lines it'd no longer be completely imbalanced.

funny how you're aiming this at me but I'm not the one asking for ta to come back.

Gill Halendt · Jun 13, 2010, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

exactly. you can't. well, unless they're all wearing the same guild tag, or you are 'in the know' (a lot people in the scene openly admit to syncing). i'm assuming then, that since you can't get caught for it, then its perfectly okay to do it? okay then. long live cheaters.

What would you do to solve this problem other then discard/redesign RA?

Punishing synchers is next to impossible as it's impossible to determine wether people are actually synching. Avoiding synching completely is also 100% impossible by design: even with endless cues there's a minor chance that people trying to get in the same team will succeed.

Off course synching is not okay. There's no way to solve this problem while keeping RA as it is tough. You can just tone it down - and they already did once - but the issue is well-rooted in the format itself.

pumpkin pie · Jun 14, 2010, 05:04 AM // 05:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

snipped

Off course synching is not okay. There's no way to solve this problem while keeping RA as it is tough. You can just tone it down - and they already did once - but the issue is well-rooted in the format itself.

If its not possible to solve sync problem, do not promote it, or create loophole by replying with stupid stupid email that says "hitting the enter button same time as your friend isn't a violation"